This is an email follow-up on a conversation I
had with a friend on the morality of Edward Snowden’s publishing of what
appears to me to be illegal actions of our government. Louis Brossard
On 6/28/2013 8:18 AM, Louis Brossard wrote:
Joe
Darby was the man who exposed the torture at Abu Ghraib. He did everything he could to keep his identity secret. He is
still afraid of some kind of retribution for that act although he is not sorry
for doing it.
Because he tried to remain anonymous to protect
himself would you put him in the same category as Edward Snowden? Would you
call him a coward also? Snowden did not remain anonymous but he did try to
protect himself. I consider him a hero just as I do Joe Darby.
Prosecute those who break the requirement of secrecy
unless what they are exposing is a far more serious breaking of the law by the
government. It was right to expose Aub Ghraib. It is also right to expose the
breaking of the law (FISA
Amendments Act of 2008) by the government, a law that had already been much
diminished under Bush from what it was when originally passed by the Congress.
One
man can lie to Congress with impunity. Another can tell the truth to the
American people and be charged with treason. My idea of justice is far more
naive than that.
BTW,
I think it is highly ironic that Donald Rumsfeld outed Joe Darby and then praised him for the disclosure,
the very tortur of which he was one of the main instigators. Obama condemns
Snowden although he promised to have one of the most transparent
administrations ever.
Friend Friday, June 28, 2013 12:14 PM
Hi Lou,
Several recent "whistleblower" incidents in government agencies have
highlighted the fact that we haven't got a consensus in this country about what
constitutes valuable warnings from insiders about allegedly unethical and even
illegal practices, and what constitutes dangerous exposure of legitimate
government secret operations that are protecting our country. I certainly
don't pretend to know more about this than anyone else, particularly those who
presumably have access to much more information than I have. But I will
say that if someone agrees to carry out a job and adhere to certain
non-disclosure rules as a condition of employment, and later makes his own
analysis that something is more important than his pledge of secrecy, he is, de
facto, subject to prosecution. I am very troubled by the argument that
every individual worker should have the freedom to make their own assessment of
what should and what should not be revealed. To adopt that reasoning,
there would be no purpose in having all these Confidential/Secret/Top Secret
classifications in the first place, and governments would be unable to maintain
any secrets, which would render them unable to engage in any form of delicate
diplomacy, or to have any military secrets, which I'm sure you would recognize
would be unworkable. At the same time, I do understand that our existing
classification system is out of control and that there are many things classified
for the wrong reasons or for no reason at all. We absolutely should be
trying to reform that system. And we do need real oversight. By the
courts or by Congress, but definitely oversight is vitally necessary.
That said, I don't think that any lone "whistleblower" who makes
available highly classified material to the general public, based solely on his
own judgment of what's important to be revealed should be viewed as a
hero. I think such people should be investigated without ideological bias
and in most cases prosecuted, and if convicted, subjected to appropriate
punishment. In the case of Bradley Manning, he seems to be a very
misguided young man, and probably deserves some punishment, but certainly not
threatened with the death penalty, and absolutely NOT tortured while in
confinement. In the case of Edward Snowden, it remains to be proved what
damage his revelations may have caused our country, and I acknowledge that his
revelations uncovered the depth of PRISM and other very questionable
surveillance practices, but again, he broke his oaths (which he could have
refused to take, and gone on to some other employment), so I think he should be
investigated and if convicted, subjected to appropriate punishment. If it
is done without ideological bias and within our system of justice, I believe it
will not dampen the inclinations of other whistleblowers who want to make facts
known, but within some kind of framework, NOT to make them known to everyone
including our enemies, JUST BASED ON ONE PERSON'S ASSESSMENT. That makes
no sense to me. We need to develop such a framework. We have some
of the elements, such as chain-of-command, internal but independent ombudsmen,
Congressional oversight committees, etc. I would agree that such channels
are not currently working well, but that's the place to focus on change, I
believe; not making these independent individuals into "heroes", even
if what they reveal seems to be scandalous. That's my position.
On 6/28/2013 12:51 PM, Louis Brossard wrote:
He
did not break his oath until the government broke theirs. You would have
Ellsberg punished for telling his fellow citizens of the illegal actions of the
government. He was only saved from punishment because the government was caught
once again lying and cheating in his trial. He was saved by a technicality.
Darby was saved by the pusillanimous actions of Rumsfeld
trying to save his own reputation.
Under what circumstance would you
consider a whistleblower justified since they all break some rule, oath or law.
Otherwise there is no reason to whistle blow. And, by the way, we do have a
whistleblower protection law that works for everyone except the government. I
think when the government breaks its own laws it forfeits its right to secrecy.
Finally, if Snowden does release
the additional damaging information that he did not originally release and now has
threatened to do, where government employees are put in danger individually, I
will change my opinion. So far he has made a good faith effort to protect individuals.
Friend Friday, June 28,
2013 01:20 PM
So your argument is "my keeping my promise is dependent
on your keeping your promise"? I've never thought that was the way
it goes, and I don't believe there's any legal precedent for that line of reasoning.
The two are separate actions and both are surely wrong. At least, I think
so.
I suppose, to be consistent, I'd have to agree that Ellsberg deserved some form
of punishment, although if I were the judge, it would not be a harsh
punishment. I think there needs to be something to deter some people from
making casual or not-well-considered breaches of security. If there's no
penalty, what's the purpose of security rules? In considering the
appropriate punishment, I would expect that the nature of the government
practice, as well as the consequences of revealing it would be the major
factors.
What I'm arguing against is making it perfectly OK for absolutely ANYONE who
has signed an agreement to keep classified documents secret to USE THEIR OWN
INDIVIDUAL JUDGMENT as to what should be kept secret and what should not.
In any specific case, they may be right or they may be wrong, but it is a VERY
DANGEROUS MESSAGE TO SEND to the hundreds of thousands of people with security
clearances, that EVERY ONE OF THEM can aspire to becoming a "hero" by
violating their secrecy agreements. It is likely that SOME OF THEM WILL
MAKE VERY POOR JUDGMENTS that will lead to damaging results.
What I'm arguing FOR is the development of a framework within our system of government
for whistleblowers to channel their information in some process that insures
that truly unethical or illegal practices can be either ended or revealed to
the public, but NOT ON THE BASIS OF A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL'S JUDGMENT. What
that framework should look like I cannot say. The present system is
clearly not effective. Whistleblowers can be ignored by official channels
or even retaliated against. People can lie to Congress. It's a big
problem. But I don't think the solution is to canonize those who take it
upon themselves to be the judge of important matters like national
security. I don't want individuals whose names I don't even know to pass
their judgment on these matters. It's bad enough that we have to trust at
least some politicians to make such decisions!
On 6/29/2013 6:57 AM, Louis Brossard wrote:
You are totally right
of course. I do not believe that breaking one law is justification to break
another. I realize that is what I said as I reread it but I do not support or
believe that is a just, moral or even rational to follow such a principle. I do
believe that it is right and moral to break a law to correct the more serious
breach of law and justice. I guess that is what the whistleblower law does,
give the person the right to break an oath, promise or law without being
punished for informing the world of the illegal actions of the powerful.
I agree that there is
a problem when each person can chose what laws to obey and which not to obey.
But there is a bigger problem when a person must get permission from the
offending party or their ally. Look at what happens to our lady airmen at the
Air Force Academy and throughout the services.
No, I think that each
instance of whistleblowing must be adjudged on its own merits. It is not
practical for every instance to be addressed by a committee or some other
group. But in the case of Snowden he did exactly what you wish he would do, he
gave the information to one of the most creditable newspapers in the world, The
Guardian, and gave them very strict instructions to vet the content and make
sure that no individual would be exposed. He took every precaution that he
could imagine to insure that only the illegal action of the United States
Government be exposed. Just read the transcript of Glenn Greenwald, the
Guardian reporter (blogger).
I guess the real
problem here is finding what is the action that is the most good for the most people;
unfortunately that means the most people in the United States, not all people.
That would be far too Christian of an idea for this “Christian” nation. And
yes, there need to be consequences for breaking any law. Do you think Obama
will be put on trial, or Bush, or Chaney for the laws they broke? Should we
find George Washington guilty of breaking the British law under which he was
serving when he joined in the rebellion?
Our government
leaders broke a law, FISA, even after they had diminished the law to allow them
more leeway. They broke the covenant they made with their citizens, a
transparent and honest government. If you wish that the guilty be punished I
suggest that we start with the most serious crimes first. That is not Edward
Snowden or Bradley Manning. Then you can find those two guilty, as they have
already admitted, and fine each one dollar.
On 6/29/2013 7:52 AM, Louis Brossard
wrote:
Friend,
just a quick reminder on whistleblowers. Obama campaigned in 2008 supporting
whistleblowers, even praising them. He was going to have an open
administration. His administration has prosecuted more “leaks” than any other
administration in the history of the United States by a very wide margin. While
he didn’t take an oath of honesty on his campaign I think he did make a
covenant with us. He has not kept his promise. Yet Obama is eager to punish
others who don’t keep their promise by exposing his own dishonesty and illegal
actions. I think that is wrong and shameful. Is that just the corrupting
influence of the power he now holds or were we just wrong and he has always
been that way?
Friend
Yep, Obama is not exactly the guy he
presented to us during his campaigns. But that's hardly novel for a
politician, I'm sorry to say. I certainly don't pretend to know what
drives him, but I do think that being in that position of awesome power and
surrounded by so many strong personalities and pressures is, in itself,
corrupting. Another way to look at it is that we shouldn't assume that if
WE had access to all the information the Prez has, we might not come to
different conclusions, ourselves. But on the other hand (as we inevitably
say), Obama is an experienced and successful politician, and a very skilled
one. Who knows what you or I might do differently if we were in such a
position and had all the knowledge and all the power and were subject to all
the pressures that he has? I guess we can never know the answers to those
questions. It's not like there's a handbook that says this is the way to
run the most influential nation in the world, just like there's no handbook
that says this is the way to run your life. Of course there are some
universal rules that I think we would all agree on, but those are usually not
the problem--it's the complicated decisions that have no good outcomes, no
matter what you do, that nobody else can make for the leader--those are the
tough ones.
Friend Saturday, June 29,
2013 05:02 PM
I
just think that I don't have all the facts yet about Snowden's actions and
related matters, to judge him as a hero or a traitor. I noted that this
is exactly what his own father said to a reporter a day or two
ago. I think this is one of those situations that will take some time to
clarify--maybe years. It's easy to consider the extremes and either
condemn him or praise him, but there's a huge middle ground where it's not
clear, and that's all I can see at this point. Sure, if he uncovered a
plot within the CIA to explode a bomb in the White House or round up all the
illegal aliens and send them to gas chambers, it would be easy to classify him
as a hero for exposing it. Or if he released the identities of our spies
in foreign countries, exposing them to being tortured and killed by foreign
governments, it would be easy to classify him as a traitor. But it
appears to me that he--and he, alone--decided that these surveillance programs
were illegal and contrary to constitutional guarantees--an assessment that may
be true, but also may not be--it's not difficult to find people who are
convinced that such surveillance has become necessary in today's world, whether
you or I agree with their convictions. That is my overwhelming objection
to his actions--even if his revelations turn out to be much more valuable than
any sort of harm that may have been caused by them being made public, I don't
want such a decision being made by one junior analyst who works for a large
government contractor.
I agree that the existing channels for whistleblowing are grossly inadequate
and need a far better framework. I said that before. But that's
where I think the effort needs to be focused. I don't see that as a
justification for treating his breaking of his commitments lightly. If
commitments mean nothing, our entire system of societal trust vaporizes.
Thus, he's no hero in my mind. Neither is Manning, and if you pinned me
down, I'd probably have to say that neither was Ellsberg, even though I thought
he was, at the time. I don't think we gain anything by lionizing anyone
who willingly accepts the constraints of secrecy, then later violates them, for
any reason short of averting a total disaster, anyway. What should he
have done? I don't know, maybe found a sympathetic member of Congress and
conferred with him or her. But I don't want the editors of The Guardian
or the New York Times, and certainly not some individual contractor employee,
making those kinds of crucial decisions about critical government actions, good
or bad, legal or illegal, constitutional or not, IN THEIR OPINION. I
never approved their having that kind of power.
On 6/30/2013 7:16 AM, Louis Brossard wrote:
Well, one person does
not make the decision what to publish in either the Guardian or the NYT. The
editor or the editorial board is the minimum. In a case this momentous I’m sure
the top level of each paper was directly involved, even if they wish to remain
hidden. You can’t get a better oversight than that in my mind. Snowden did just
exactly what you are requesting he do. He didn’t give this information to Amy
Goodman, although I for one would trust her reporting, maybe more than the NYT.
After all, the Times supported the nonsense justification for the Iraq war.
Democracy Now did not buy that purposeful misinformation and reported that it
was all politically inspired hooey.
I don’t for one
second believe I could function as the president. I have neither the brain
horsepower, the leadership, the personality, nor the wish to work that hard.
But I do want the person who takes that position to be honest. The big lies
that all have committed are for their own benefit, not to protect the country.
Johnson on Viet Nam, Nixon on Watergate, Reagan on Contra, Clinton on Lewinsky,
Bush on Iraq and surveillance and now Obama on wire taping without a warrant
and the Iraq war to name just those that come to mind immediately. I do not buy
the subterfuge that they know secrets they can’t tell us that justify their
ignoring the Constitution and their own promises.
I guess we have
explained our positions adequately. I feel like I am beating a dead horse now.
I offer you the last word. We really are on the same side. We both agree there
is need for some secret action by the government. We both agree that power is
the great corrupter. We both know that enormous ego is required to run for the
position of president. And I think we are both disappointed that humans aren’t
better than we are. We are haggling about the details. I just think it is very
wrong to send a person to prison for a very long time for exposing the
dishonesty of our leaders.
Friend Sunday, June 30,
2013 01:46 PM
Hi
Lou,
You're right about several things: we've both had the opportunity to express
our positions; we are basically in agreement about the essential issues; and we
both are discouraged by the inability of so-called civilized people to act
responsibly. My thanks for ceding the last word to me (but of course, it
doesn't really have to be the last word). I will just point out that
simply the number of people who make such decisions isn't important to
me, it's the issue of allowing any random person or small group of persons to
make such decisions, rather than at least having people whom we have placed in
their positions with the understanding that they would be the ones who
will make them. I had some say in who was elected President, and
indirectly I had some say in who was appointed as the head of the CIA, FBI,
etc., and I had some say in who at least my senators and representative
are. I did not have any say (nor did anyone else) in determining who the
editors of the Guardian and the NYT are, much less in allowing Bradley Manning
or Edward Snowden to have access to Top Secret documents. In other words,
what I find objectionable is that the ONLY accountability that exists is those
individuals' secrecy oaths, and those were broken. OK, those are my final
words on the topic.